The CHRISTIANing Podcast
The CHRISTIANing Podcast
Ep.66 - Is Christian Nationalism Actually Christian?
With just a few weeks left until the mid-term election the phrase Christian Nationalism is being thrown around quite a bit. It is a concept with a negative connotation that is typically assigned to right wing politicians like Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene. This episode was recorded from a new mentoring platform called Wisdom where Kirk had the opportunity to give his answer to the question, "Is Christian Nationalism actually Christian?" and was also able to interact with some live guests during the talk. To listen to the talk on the Wisdom platform click the link below. You can also join Wisdom, follow Kirk, and join more live talks in the future and contribute real time to the Christianing podcast. Enjoy!
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SPEAKER_02:right, and welcome back everyone to the Christianing podcast. Thanks for joining us today. We have a different type of episode today. Thank you for watching. do live talks where people get to jump on and interact. And that's really cool. I really enjoy the interactive feature, but I get to record it. And if I want to use it and upload it to this podcast feed, I can. So this was one of my first talks I did on wisdom, a topic that we haven't covered yet on the podcast. Just really answering the question, is Christian nationalism Christian? Is this kind of political ideology that gets thrown around about Christian nationalism, is it founded, does it have its founding in the Bible at all? So, we seek to answer that question, and we got a couple good guest interactions on it, so... Enjoy. Sorry about the audio quality. I did learn a few tricks, you know, since I recorded this wisdom talk, how to make the audio quality better, which so next time if I upload any wisdom talks, it'll sound a little better. So I apologize for that. But in the future, so I'll put the link to this actual wisdom talk on the wisdom platform in the show notes if you want to jump on Wisdom and follow the Cushioning Podcast there. The content there may be a little different from the podcast. Anything that I do new that's kind of new that hasn't been done on the podcast, I will upload it over the podcast so you don't miss anything new. A lot of what I'm doing over there on Wisdom is more rehashing stuff that's been shared on the on the podcast, but now I get a chance to actually get some feedback and interaction from some live audience, which just kind of takes the content to another level. So if you want to follow there, you'll see some similar content if you've been following the podcast for a while. But that's how we will kind of navigate two platforms at the same time or try. But first, enjoy this first wisdom. conversation, answering the question, is Christian nationalism actually Christian? Enjoy. All right, everyone. Wisdom, peeps, thanks for tuning in. Thanks for jumping on here. I'm going to give you guys a sneak peek of an upcoming episode that we're working on at the Christianing podcast. I had a question recently. Just wanted to get our thoughts on Christian nationalism. It's a term that's been tossed around in political circles. It's a divisive term, I guess, as politicians like Lauren Boebert out of Colorado, I believe, Marjorie Taylor Greene. These are people that have been most closely associated with this Christian nationalism philosophy. From what I understand, people like Lauren Boebert have tried to distance themselves from the term, from the philosophy. They don't. It's kind of a negative thing out there It's something that the Democratic base is painting as this very dangerous right-wing philosophy. So all that to say, not so much about the term. We're not talking so much about Christian nationalism, the label. But there is something to the ideology that... is behind the label Christian nationalist. And it has, it's very, it is an ideology that does very much exist within the evangelical circles. My tribe, my people, the, you know, the culture that I represent, evangelical American, you know, just Christians, those that try to adhere to the teachings of christ and all things that they do and so just wanted to jump on real quick and this is episode we'll be working on just kind of the concept is christian nationalism actually christian if you read the bible would you be led to to a christian nationalist understanding in the modern context the way it's used here in america and so The best I understand the philosophy, the way regular culture or political culture identifies it and the way I think it's being experienced is that it's the belief that America is uniquely a Christian nation, meaning it was... the idea a very specific idea of god not like a general idea of god as far as like every nation under the sun when you believe in the sovereignty of god you believe he has his hands on on all forming of all nations in a general sense but the christian nationalist view is that america specifically was a specific idea of god to be this bastion of christianity in the global culture at large to be this leader of of western christian thought and morality and spirituality and so therefore america has this unique calling you know to uphold these these christian traditions and um that there isn't there isn't that clear separation of church and state that is talked about that it shouldn't be separated, that the American government should be intimately connected with Christian ideology, Christian thought, Christian tradition. And so that needs to be so the way it's showing up in modern political cycle, you know, like coming up in November midterms is we need to take America back. That's kind of the language that is used is We need to take America back for God, for Christ, for Jesus, return it back to its original purpose. America has lost its, you'll hear language like, America has lost its moorings, it's lost its anchor in biblical faith and things of that nature. And so that has shown up politically. And it's been something that political candidates have learned, especially on the Republican side, It's something that Republican candidates have learned how to play to, depending on what state they're from, what their constituency is. There's definitely success to be had if you're a Republican political candidate representing Bible Belt areas that very much are pro Americana traditional Christianity. So that's kind of what we're talking about when we talk about Christian nationalism. So the question being, if you were just, say you're from another planet and you show up to Earth knowing nothing about religions of Earth, having no historical context, and someone hands you a Bible and they read it and tell me what are the philosophies and things that you see and hear, just they're free from that. prior knowledge. They're free from prior bias. That's always the litmus test in which I want to think through when I'm trying to determine if something is biblical or not. I try to do my best. How would I receive the teachings of the Bible and the narratives of the Bible if I had no upbringing in any sort of cultural context? My mind was a blank slate. That's impossible to do but it's a good activity to think through if you really want to get to the right answer and you just don't want to parrot or puppet somebody else's you know ideology somebody else's agenda you know which is something i think if you're skeptical it's it's fine it's fine to be skeptical uh especially in modern times in the modern american christian culture so yeah be mindful of those things so so short answer you know we'll let the cat out of the bag first is christian nationalism christian i think the the answer is a definitive no it's a it's a definitive note based on the understanding of christian nationalism that i just kind of laid out um you you would be hard-pressed to read the pure form biblical text, and use no other text, no other source, and if you're just using the pure form biblical text, it would be, in my estimation, virtually impossible to draw a position that says the United States is uniquely called by God to play a specifically ordained role in in the global culture and that the government of the united states was intended by god to be specifically aligned with christian teaching and christian thought now i understand you know because i i read my bible just like anybody else can i understand where people can cherry pick some biblical understandings and make some of those cases. So I don't have judgment in my heart over anybody who, any Christian who would take a Christian nationalist point of view and say, no, no, no, I read this one scripture and based on, I'm led to believe this. Like it is, it's not, It is easy to misunderstand at first glance the teachings of scripture in terms of human government and the role God intended faith to play in those human government. Like if you're just doing a cursory reading without much depth and without much really deep understanding of how does this all connect into one larger overarching narrative, yes, it's very, it's not hard to make these mistakes. So that's why I just ask, I have a ton of grace on my Christian brothers and sisters who can draw these conclusions, these Christian nationalist conclusions. If you're a non-Christian trying to understand Christian culture, I would just encourage you to be patient, with these people understanding that, from what I understand, they're trying to do what they believe is ultimately morally correct based on their worldview. And so anybody, whether you're a Christian or non-Christian, who's attempting to do that, at the bottom of their heart, should be understanding first and then dialogue and maybe deeper discussion tougher questions later you know as opposed to doing what what we currently do which is just throw stones demonize castigate i do things of that nature so just know that i don't bring any of this stuff up on wisdom or or the podcast to to contribute to that so i'm always very clear in what the intentions of bringing up these discussions are it's just these discussions are educational to really bring people into the reality of what scripture actually teaches so like i said short answer the question is christian nationalism christian short answer is no and how do we get there um First, I'll just bring up one passage that is one of those passages that can be, at first glance, can be misunderstood. And it can be just at first glance saying, ooh, hey, this is what I'm talking about. Jesus is supposed to be intimately connected with any government of a country that's truly... right and truly good and so this is a popular christmas uh christmas passage but we'll go there just real quick um for brevity's sake we'll just look at one and that's isaiah 9 chapter 9 6 this is like the the coming of of christ chapter you know it's the the chapter heading isaiah chapter 9 is for To us, a child is born. So it's kind of one of the nativity Christian Bible passages that come December, you hear in church a lot, and you hear, you just hear repeated a bunch. But Isaiah 9, 6, For to us, a child is born. To us, a son is given. and the government shall be upon his shoulder. So this is where you get zealous Christians saying, see, right there, Jesus has been born. For those that are kind of new to the Bible, Isaiah is a prophetic book. He's prophesizing about a lot of things, both in his current time, and then there's a lot of prophecy that is obviously Looking forward to a future event like this for us for to us a child is born so this is widely in biblical circles received as a as a Prophecy that that was culminated and fulfilled in the birth of Jesus Christ and so you see here from Isaiah Like hundreds of years before the birth of Christ, it says, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, my God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Verse seven, of the increase of his government and of peace, there will be no end. And this is where, this next part is where you, when you just keep reading again with a kind of a blank slate, open mind, you start to get bigger clues. on the throne of david and over his kingdom to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forever more the zeal of the lord of hosts will do this so this is where if you read that in a lot of a lot of american christians read these read these verses in these passages and just immediately they apply it to their current American understanding. You know, us Americans, we're very American centered in our understanding of the world. And so we take that to our Bible reading as well. And we read the Bible through a very American centric, but we see very clearly that this government that's supposed to rest upon the shoulders of Christ goes back to a specific throne, the throne of David, who was in ancient Israel the first true king of Israel. Yes, Saul was before him, but he was rejected by God by the Hebrews' own text, the Hebrews' own understanding that Saul was the first but false king. David was originally chosen, and then the people chose Saul instead, but eventually David did make it to his throne. He was the first true good king of Israel. His leadership, his reign was not a perfect reign by any stretch, but it was a reign that sought to honor God and sought to create a nation in Israel that was honoring and worshiping God alone. I still have to say that clearly here in the text, this government that Jesus is supposed to uphold is connected to a throne of David, which brings us to Israel. So then your next question is, okay, is Israel the true government that God is blessing? And so you have, there's a lot of confusion in Christianity surrounding Israel. We won't get into all that. Maybe that'll be a future discussion. But again, it's hard. It can be difficult to understand Israel's place in appropriate biblical thought. And there's a lot of understandable mistakes that are made there. But here, the key on the throne of David and over his kingdom to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. so here again just with uh just looking at this one passage if you have just an open-minded kind of blank slate you get out of an american-centered understanding you see clearly that this government that is supposed to be resting upon jesus shoulders is connected to this throne of david which is the nation of israel but it's not just a a natural geopolitical nation because the rain is it's an eternal rain it's a rain that never ends so that's when you go from israel to okay this can't be talking about a specific geopolitical because as you read the rest of the bible this version of the earth does come to an end these geopolitical national boundaries and wars and things this all comes to an end culminating in the permanent reign of jesus christ over his creation forever and again these are just um these are just kind of basic biblical tenants i'm not trying to be persuasive i'm just trying to be explanatory i see i got a guest waiting i'll finish this thought and i will I'll bring you on because I'd love to hear your thoughts here. So we see clearly that even this verse that can be Isaiah 9, 6, that a lot of people use from a Christian nationalist American thought, that's not at all what the Bible is pointing to. Now, there's a lot left to understand there. There's a lot left to discuss there. You know, which we won't take the time to dive into here, but I just wanted to bring up one example of a commonly misunderstood passage that somebody could grab at first glance and say, see, America needs to be a Christian nation. That was the intent. The government of America was supposed to rest on Jesus' shoulders. This is what he came to establish. But just as you keep going in the very same passage, it just breaks There's enough detail there that causes you to pause on that and develop and have a greater, grander understanding of what the Bible is attempting to teach there. So that's just one example of many that I could give of when I say, is Christian nationalism actually Christian? not if you dig into Scripture and you really try to understand what all of Scripture is trying to point to. So let's bring in a guest here and see any questions, thoughts, pushback, whatever. I think we have Jason joining us.
SPEAKER_00:It's TGIT. TGIT, thank God it's this decade.
UNKNOWN:Hello.
SPEAKER_00:Happy that you're on the app. I see that you're pretty new. I think you just did talks. I'm an OG. I already kind of retired in multiple ways. I retired at 45 with a large collection of PHRE domains in the world. I started buying my websites that share the gospel in 1999. I finished my double work term at Microsoft Canada. I wrote my first book in 1988 in grade five. I started reading my first book December 1st, 1986. My first book is the Bible. I post my first Bible on my Instagram. I think God just did that because the Gideons gave a lot of people the Bibles in grade three in Canada. At public schools, they were allowed to do that. We also had the Lord's Prayer, you know, on announcements in the morning, even though in public schools now they're not allowed to do that. But the Gideons came to my grade three class and gave me my first Bible. And they have a part at the beginning, the Gideons, for people that aren't familiar, is an organization that gives out Bibles named after one of the old time prophets, Gideon, in the Old Testament. So the Gideons International Association, they were allowed to visit public schools. So they visited my public school. I was born in Toronto, May 6, 1977. All of this is my testimony because I started reading the Bible December 1, 1986. They said, if you read a little bit of this book every day, God will bless you, right? And I believed it, received it, because my parents were already bringing me to church. They were bringing me to a United Church. I don't agree with that theology. They baptized babies. So I was baptized as a baby just after May 6, 1977. But then the reason why that doesn't count as a baptism, that you could dedicate babies. The biblical example is they dedicated babies. They dedicated Jesus, but they didn't baptize Jesus as a baby. Even Jesus was baptized as an adult. And John, when he went to John the Baptist, John said, I need to be baptized by you. And Jesus said, suffice it. Or did that suffice it? So this is a translation, right? Because he probably spoke Aramaic, right? But Aramaic, you think? Jesus spoke Aramaic?
SPEAKER_02:Yes. I mean, that would be kind of common.
SPEAKER_00:It would make sense. Speak English. But anyway, the way they translate it most of the time is like, let it be so or suffice it to be so. Like he said to John Baptist, baptize me anyway, even though John Baptist was like, look, how could I baptize you? Because he knew who he was, right? He was his cousin, kind of, but he knew he was the son of God. So The thing is that Jesus said, suffice it to be so, just baptize me anyway, in other words, because he wanted to be an example of what we should do, even though he was without sin. So in a way, baptism symbolizes the washing away of sin. It's just symbolic. It doesn't save you. It's not like water washes away your sin, technically, right? You still have to bathe. You're not going to not bathe, but it's symbolic. It's like a wedding. When people say, well, why should I bother to get baptized? It's like, if you say you love somebody better, so why do we bother to have to have a wedding? You know what I'm saying? We love each other anyway. That's why there's so many single parents, right? Because people say they love each other anyway, and then they're gone after, okay? So basically, right? So I got baptized as an adult, but not in that United Church because the United Church, they're more too liberal for me. I don't agree with that theology. Basically, a lot of different people can be ministers, including if you're You know, you can marry a man and still be a minister in the United Church. So as a man, right? Like, so I'm more in terms of like, I'm more like a Baptist or Pentecostal, more so my theology, but I'm not, I'm just a Bible guy. Like I call myself a Bible, right? Like I do the theology according to the Bible. Like if you correct my theology, I'll say, okay, show me the word and then I'll correct it. I'm not going to be committed to a certain thing. Because the thing is, well, all of us are, we see the glass like half as there's like a scripture, right? But we don't see clearly, like only Jesus has the exact perfect theology. Like only God knows the exact perfect theology, right? So you could always learn and better because, so I was brought up in the United Church, but then I switched to the, I was trying to switch to the Seven Day Adventist Church because they came to my United Church on Sundays and they came on Saturday. So the answer, for instance, like I agree with you that, because, but I only heard the last part, but Christianity nationalism is just not even Christian. Because the thing is, if you send it, then Trump is a good Christian, right? Because the thing is, Trump is not a good Christian. He's an insurrectionist. He's a seditionist. And in Canada, you'd be in prison already. In the States, it takes a little bit more time for the justice system to turn into justice. It takes 70-something years, apparently, because his dad started them evading taxes. But I don't want to get too political, but at the same time, I already did. So that's not Christianity, okay? I know that people say, oh, they don't want to be a political, but everybody is, everything is political because it was you saying you're not going to get political is political. I just want to be clear when people say they don't want to talk about politics, that's a political statement, right? Okay. So the thing is, when you say you don't want to talk about politics, that is political because you're doing it because you want to maybe curry favor. You don't want to offend somebody, right? Like somebody says they don't want to talk about politics or religion or race. They don't want to offend anybody, right? So those are the three things I talk about. Because I'm a Black Christian that puts Christ first and that, what's the other thing? Race, religion, and politics. So I just talked about all of them, right? And I'm talking about politics because the thing is, the reason I talk about politics, imagine you were in Hitler's day and you were in Germany and you said, look, I don't want to talk about race, religion, or politics. I just want to go to work, make money. You don't see the problem with that? Then basically, that's what all the people did. Even the Pope was accused of that. They're like, look, this is going to affect my congregation if I say something bad about Hitler, okay? It's just like what they say in Russia. It's going to affect them if they say to Putin, because he got put in prison. So they're like, I don't want to talk about race, religion, or politics. Meanwhile, the Jews are getting exterminated. You're like, look, I don't want to talk about race, religion, or politics. I don't want to be divisive. Everybody's not going to agree. You know, like somebody put on my YouTube, they said they commented, right? Not that many people comment, but I was glad he commented. He said, look, you shouldn't talk about, you know, you shouldn't talk about, like, I think I was saying that Trump is an insurrectionist or something. He said, you shouldn't talk about that because not everybody's going to agree with you. I said, if that's a principle, Jesus had all sorts of people disagree with him, right? So Paul got locked up in prison. The disciples got... got crucified upside down. So who are we following in the example if we're not going to say something because not everybody's going to agree with us? I will definitely say Hitler was not right. Okay, look, Putin is not right. Trump is not right, right? So the thing is, if you're not going to be able to say, there's flat earthers now. I've been on Clubhouse, there's flat earthers. They say the earth is flat, you can't prove it's round, right? So there's people that say, you know, that say that, you know, Barack Obama and Fauci were killing everybody with the vaccine and that that the world was gonna end. back when Trump was president. You know, some people think he's still president, right? So the thing is, if you can't speak the truth, then you just can't speak about anything because no matter what you say, somebody's not gonna agree with you being able to say that, right? Like somebody's gonna be offended, right? You could try to not offend anybody and then you just offended me because the thing is, if you don't say anything to offend anybody, like the person that commented on my YouTube channel, they said, you shouldn't say that because not everybody's gonna agree with you, right? And he said, look, there's no reason There's no positives thing. And not many people watch my YouTube channel, right? So he said, look, you shouldn't say that. Cause I said, I bet you, you have no content. Because if his principle is you shouldn't say anything that everybody's not gonna agree with, then he probably is the only way of accomplishing that is not say anything. So I posted it, I wrote that as a comment. I said, there's no way for you to say much if you don't want anybody to disagree with you, right? And I bet you you don't have any content. And I think you should say what you believe. So if you're a Trumpster, if you're an insurrectionist, if you think Republicans are the only Christians in the world, you should say that. I don't agree with you, but you should say that. I'd rather you say it so I know what you believe, right? So I know that you better move the polling station away from him, right? Because he's going to attack maybe the person administering the voting booth, right? Maybe he thinks the earth is flat still and he thinks it's going to fall off. So you shouldn't let him babysit your child because it's going to be a problem, right? But The joke is, and I'll close with it, that I said, look, I looked and he had no content. So it's easy if you don't put any content out to not have anybody disagree with you. But I said, look at that. You have no content, right? And maybe I don't know what you believe, but I say what I believe. I believe Jesus is the Christ. All of us have equal value, but that doesn't mean we're all right, right? It is true that the earth is not flat. It is true that Biden is the president. It is true that Trump is a criminal and insurrectionist. The Republican Party, look, is not a Christian party to where they're acting now. It's like acting like a gang, a cult, right? They can't tell the truth and truth matters. Jesus said he is truth, the way and the life. That is not Christianity, right? But I said, look, and I said, look, and you say you have no content. You don't say anything because you want everybody to agree with you. And I disagree with you. Say what you believe, right? Jesus is the Christ and that's not Christianity. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02:I will thank you, Jason, for popping on and Well-spoken man there. Just a couple things that I would just say from just a response to some of the stuff that you brought up. Some great comments. I would say, yeah, I definitely understand the, you know, speak truth where it is true. The only thing that I would bring up that I'm kind of what's really, I think, is important for us Christians. Jason, you're obviously a man of God and obviously walking with the Lord, and so that's awesome, spreading the gospel, incredible. So what I see happening, though, in the political sphere is people incorrectly associating Christ with certain things. political ideologies. And that's what I'm really trying to shine a light on from a biblical perspective, because I see it happening on both sides. I see it happen on both sides. Republicans aren't the only ones that incorrectly associate Christ with their political desires. It happens on the Democratic side all the time. you know, just, and I'll maybe do a discussion on this later, the most recent Martha's Vineyard debacle with sending, you know, DeSantis sending the immigrants to Martha's Vineyard, I saw on social media, Democratic-leaning Christians, or from that kind of Democratic ideology, and saying that Jesus, if Jesus were ministering today, he would be condemning these actions and things of that nature. That's where I think both sides, that's what we have to be very careful with in the current political landscape that we don't, Jesus is not to be a political tool for building a government according to our wishes, our desires that I believe scripture, like we were looking at Isaiah Isaiah chapter 9, scripture says that this American government isn't what Jesus came to build. So incorrectly using Jesus as kind of a leverage, because obviously if you care at all about the Bible, you care at all about Christ, you're going to be influenced by a perspective that says Jesus is for this and he's against this. That's going to matter to you. you know and so uh you know faith leaders on both sides of the aisle understand that and often make the mistake of using jesus as that manipulative uh crutch of yep if you vote this way or you align yourself with this person you are against biblical principles and and jesus would is against that that that's what i would love to free the church from because i think we're just falling in we get to be the beacon on the hill the light on the hill but we're not we're we're we're engaged in the same in the exact same arguments the exact same strategies to get our desired um version of the government and That's what I'm saying. What's clear here in Isaiah 9 is that for us, a son was born, a child was given, and it's a government that is eternal forever. That's what's resting on a shoulder. Jesus was so clear. That's what I came to build. That's what has my full attention. Now, yes, the sovereignty of God means he is involved in all nations. so he's in he's involved in the establishment of every single nation in a general sense but in the specific sense starting with the throne of david and moving all through what what is that all building for what was the purpose to have a geopolitical israel that will by revelation's own words will burn up no no but obviously the bible's not teaching that you know so So that's one thing I would say kind of on the political side, yes. Say where you stand, and I'm dumb enough to believe that Christians can be Democrats, Christians can be Republicans, because that's ultimately, that's the cultural context we live in. That's the geopolitical world we live in. But it's not... And we're allowed by our government proxy and documents, we're allowed to have an opinion. We're allowed to cast a vote. So cast away according to the way you believe it should go, which, Jason, you correctly said it. Speak it, share it. This is what I believe is the right thing to do. That way we can all know what's going on. And I love the idea of... of hearing each other out and challenging perspectives and things of that nature. So anyways, that's what I was thinking, Jason, as you were sharing. Let's maybe bring in one more guest here before I got to get going. I see Adam. See if Adam can jump on with us. Hey, Adam, what's your thoughts, man? Thanks for jumping on.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, how are you doing? Great. Just listening to you. You know, but I can't help but thinking, just looking at your question and then hearing your answer, where you say, is Christian nationalism actually Christian? And then you say no. Well, I'm thinking that maybe what you're employing is a variation of the no true scotsman fallacy what do you think
SPEAKER_02:uh explain no true scotsman fallacy
SPEAKER_01:that's when you know you are of a particular belief system or race or whatever say you're a scotsman right and um you read on in a newspaper that Another Scotsman did something that was terrible, then you would say, oh, no, no, he's not a Scotsman. No true Scotsman would do that. These people are Christians because they say they are Christians. That's who they are. You know, I mean, we might not want to accept that they're Christians. I get what you're saying. Other Christians might not want to accept that. but they are Christians.
SPEAKER_02:That makes sense. Okay. So, yeah, obviously you have 80 characters to make a title. I'm just trying to quickly, concisely kind of wrap up what kind of the subject matter is. So, yeah, if I had maybe a thousand characters, I guess the more appropriate way that I think I'm approaching it is, is Christian nationalism... an ideology that you would get, like I kind of explained at the very beginning, that you would get just if you were tabula rasa, you know, blank slate, and you'd just be reading the Bible. Is that the conclusion that you would draw, you know, if you had no preconceived, like you're saying, no, no, no racial context, no, you know what I'm saying? Like, so I guess,
SPEAKER_01:I heard your, I heard your, your thing about the aliens. I did. But, but even that, then that would eliminate most of the Christian denominations. It would. Because each denomination has their own variation of what those scriptures are saying. Sure. So if you just boiled it down to what the Bible says, then if I was an alien, I'm not a Christian, so let me preface that. But now, if I was an alien, I would say, well, you keep reading over here in these scriptures that were for the Hebrews, but yet you're saying Jesus is over there. but he's not I could see where those scriptures are in Jesus but I don't see where Jesus is in those scriptures you know so yes then you begin to wonder then why are you always reading over here you know to talk about Jesus and why aren't you saying the words that Jesus said oh wait now that I've read it There are no words that Jesus said. There are only words that the authors of these books said Jesus said. Jesus didn't say any words that you guys have
SPEAKER_02:heard. That Jesus wrote down himself is what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So, and, oh wait, who were the authors of these Gospels? You don't know? No. Oh, they were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. no no no see i read that the church fathers put those names on those books in the second century so when you start talking about you know what someone believes and and then trying to make it as pure as you possibly can then what you find out is that it's not pure it's not people have their own beliefs what sure What I wonder about is this. The Hebrew Bible was written and set out to set out the laws to govern Hebrews, the Hebrew people. And the New Testament is the doctrines and tenets of Christianity. the hebrew people were not the only people who lived during their time sure there were many other peoples as a matter of fact there were laws that are not in that hebrew bible but they lived by them because they had to under the romans and under the assyrians and under the babylonians so there were Lots of other people living during those times that did not follow those laws, that those laws did not apply to at all. But yet, here we are, 3,500 years later, you know, saying that, hey, you know what? You got to follow those laws, but not the ones that we don't like. Like, you can eat pork now, you know, because I like it. Yeah, I get what you're saying. I like pork. So, you know, that kind of thing. So when we're talking about religion, it is not pure.
SPEAKER_02:I'm on the yes, I think I'm with you on on the humanity side of that. So first of your first comments about the Scotsman, you know, I better understand what you're saying. And yes, I do include even though I. I include these brothers and sisters as my people, those that would have a Christian nationalist theology, okay? So I'm not trying to say they're not part or they're not good enough to be in the tribe. I did not make that clear enough, so I apologize. That's one thing I really try hard. Well, I think a better
SPEAKER_01:question.
SPEAKER_02:I'm sorry, sir. Hey, they claim Christianity. So you got to claim them. I agree with that. I agree with that. So just to finish that thought, kind of my approach with, within our, you know, within the Christian tribe, so to speak, the church, you know, Bible, God says, my thoughts are not your thoughts. My ways are not your ways. My thoughts are higher than your thoughts are, are what we do now together is we join together arm and arm and we, we keep trying to press upward, understanding that we're not there today. So we keep searching scripture. We keep reading, trying to correct, over-correct ourselves, correct ourselves so that we can keep getting closer and closer to those higher thoughts, understanding that that's a job that won't be complete until heaven. So anyways, just to clarify my earlier comments.
SPEAKER_01:Go ahead. I noticed that you didn't mention Romans 13, 1 and 2. where it says everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities. There is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I will.
SPEAKER_01:He who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. So it's saying, hey, you know what? whoever is in the government is there because God put them there. That didn't work for Barack Obama. It worked for Donald Trump. So I think that the real question is, is Christian nationalism racist? Is it divisive? Is it good for our country? I think those are much more relevant questions.
SPEAKER_02:Gotcha, and I think I'm trying to maybe set up those questions by first having the discussion within my own tribe and saying, what footing are we standing on as we're even promulgating these kinds of ideas? So I think that's, from my perspective, I gotta start at the beginning with a fellow Christian and say, that's saying, hey, we got to take back America for God and stuff like that. So, okay, okay, I hear what you're saying. Let's rewind that. Let's go back to the source that we both agree is authoritative. And let's see, man, is that conclusion in here? Would we draw that? Can we draw that? I'm
SPEAKER_01:going to step down, but I appreciate you letting me up.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, man, thank you. That was great. Thank you. Thanks, Adam. Really appreciate it. Yeah. So great stuff. Great stuff, man. This is my, my first talk with, with guests kind of knew the platform just a couple of weeks in. So that's awesome. That's so much more fun than, than just podcast episodes where you're just sitting in front of a microphone with your own thoughts, getting that real world, like clarification and, and push back on certain areas that that was awesome. This is, this is going to be fun. So thank you guys, please. Um, those that are listening, when we pop back on, jump, jump in, you know, cause I really, there's so much room at the table when you're talking from a biblical Christian standpoint. Um, and the last thing that that'll leave us with, um, that was hitting my head as, as Jason was talking about, um, there's right and there's wrong there's truth there's like insurrectionist and um you know and if that's if the bible clearly says that that's wrong we got to call that out the only thing that i would cause to pause is just an understanding that there's perspective there is differing perspectives and that's where the proclamation that what i have just said is truthful That is, there's so much time and nuance that needs to go into the thought process before that proclamation is delivered. And even then we have to understand that you can do all that thought and you can include multiple perspectives, weigh them all out, and then you can still make a proclamation about what is truthful and Even then, you have to do that humbly because what Trump did on January 6th, one perspective is that was an insurrection. Another perspective is that was a riot. Now, depending on what side of that debate, you're going to like one of those conclusions or the other. The way I come at it, maybe it's a gift or a curse. I don't have... a big dog in these fights, you know, from Republican, Democrat. So I really try to look at these things, weigh all the perspectives. And I've listened to clearly to both sides and kind of what I walk away from. If you're going to interpret the actions through the paradigm that you're interpreting it through, okay, I can see how you drew that conclusion. And then if you look at it through the paradigm that you're looking at, I can see how you drew that conclusion. Now, by me saying that I can understand how you drew that conclusion, that doesn't mean necessarily I agree. But the paradigms in which we carry are more important than the conclusions that we actually promote, in my opinion. And so that's what I'm most interested in. That's what I just love by hearing from our two guests. They presented a paradigm in which they filter. They filter life. And understanding that paradigm, where that comes from, what are the hurts, pains, struggles, triumphs, successes that created that, that's, man, if we can maybe spend more time there, we're gonna get, we're gonna improve as a society, either Christian or non. We'll be able to, we'll be able to come together so much easier. Andrew Stanton, one of my favorite quotes, he's the writer of Toy Story, all the Toy Stories, like one of Pixar's big geniuses. He said, there's not a person that you can't like when you hear their story. And that's been my life experience. I may not agree with a lot of perspectives that I hear. I may not agree with a lot of conclusions that I hear people draw. But every time that I actually sit down and I understand the paradigm that somebody is filtering their experience through, I have so much more understanding as to why they drew that conclusion. And then once I can understand why, that conclusion isn't necessarily evil or wrong anymore. It's just, man, that is reflective of somebody's And it doesn't solve all the world's problems. I'm not trying to be kind of Pollyannish here, but, well, man, it's sure from the human element, it goes a long way. It goes a long way to people feeling heard, people feeling validated in their experiences. That's what I see just being lost so much. And as a Christian, I believe the way I understand Jesus, the way I understand the Bible, uh christians we can be leaders in this in this regard because again back to the original question is christian nationalism christian no from a biblical standpoint we're kind of free from having in from needing the government to do what we want it to do like i said you can have an opinion you can have a vote on how you think it should be But once you truly understand the kingdom of God and you've immersed yourself in the building of that kingdom, there's a freedom. I just say, that's, that's what I experienced. I experienced a freedom. I have some certain political leanings and I have no problem sharing those the way I believe society runs in the most healthy way. But I understand that comes from a paradigm. I understand that comes from a paradigm that's been built since my birth. And so I understand that that paradigm is full of flaws and full. It's not, It has a lot of, it's just, it only has one experience. That's the problem with it. It only has one experience. It doesn't take in all the experiences of a nation of, what are we, 500 million people? So yeah, I really, I'm here on Wisdom to be a voice for, to be a voice for Christianity to rise up and be a shining light and not to devolve ourselves into the kind of the modern political warfare that we're all experiencing and being impacted by. I'd love to be a part of healing and bridging and less about destroying and dividing. So that's it for today, y'all. Thanks for joining. Man, this was a great time. I'll be moving on soon. So give me a follow. The podcast is Christianing and christian-ing.com. You can find it. It's on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, Google, all that stuff. So Christianing, the Christianing podcast, Kirk Scott. If you can't find it, you can search my name. But the website, christian-ing.com.
SPEAKER_03:All right. See you next time.