Ep.56 - Processing: Roe V. Wade

The Pro-life v. Pro-choice debate was reignited in ways we haven't experienced in 50 years when the Supreme Court draft majority opinion basically overturning Roe v. Wade was leaked to the press several weeks ago.  The abortion activist community has been in upheaval ever since trying to gain any possible footing to continue the half a century-old precedent that has guarded abortion rights.  In this "Processing" episode, Kirk invites you into a raw unfiltered deep dive into what is actually involved in the Pro-life position, what is the source of the Pro-choice stance, and whether should there be any concessions given in order to potentially "surrender a battle to win a war."   Kirk is real and transparent and ready to give you all an inside view of a mind that is wrestling with the deeper issues behind political posturing and fighting.  
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right everyone and welcome back to the christening podcast as always thank you for tuning in thank you for joining thank you for uh adding your download to The Count, always encouraging, always appreciate that. Just lets me know that there's people out there that are paying attention, hopefully caring about what we're throwing out here on the Christianing Pod as we attempt to take the theology of Sunday to the reality of Monday. Help give you some tools and thoughts and ideas of how to live out your Christian faith in a very authentic, biblical way on Sunday. Relevant issues that face us on a daily basis. So that's the hope. Thank you if you've been coming back a time and time and time again. That's awesome. So today we're going to dive into another processing episode again. Just for those that are new to the pod, processing episodes are episodes that we're not sharing complete thoughts about. thoughts that we've kind of stamped as complete that I would stand behind in a public forum of public debates. But processing episodes are our thoughts and conclusions that are still in process to kind of bring you guys in on the whole journey it takes, at least for me personally, to get to one of those solidified, like, thus saith the Lord positions. Because I do feel like we would all benefit if we would get to those thus saith the Lord conclusions, maybe a little bit slower, maybe with a little bit more deliberation, more meditation, like I've shared in the past. I can stew and sit on questions and issues for years before I really come out the other side with some level of biblical confidence, at least according to my conscious understanding that I never believe that I am the most accurate source of biblical truth. I believe the Bible is it, and I'm trying every day, just like you all, to To attain to it, as the Bible says, my thoughts, as God through the prophets say, my thoughts are higher than your thoughts, my ways are higher than your ways. So I really believe biblical study is the process of constantly, consistently elevating our thinking to a place that gets closer and closer to Christ by faith. by the day and understanding that the Bible is also pretty clear that we will not fully attain it on the side of glory. So anyways, let's process. So this is something I've been processing. This is one of the years. This one's been on my heart and mind for years as I've just been, like you, wrestling with the abortion issue. And I think some of you guys that are listening, this episode may be a struggle with you because I'm not as corporately to a place of, I'm firm and solid on all aspects of this issue. And so I just, if you're in that place where you're just like, this is a done deal, I don't wanna hear anybody discuss it. I just ask you to maybe bear with us to the end here. So I understand that there's definitely that pressure on me As we look at abortion, we look at the leaked Supreme Court majority opinion that looks like it's going to overturn Roe v. Wade, which has thrown the abortion issue right back into the forefront of the American cultural mindset. And so I'm right back here. And just as I don't get frustrated at initial points that are made up here, just understand that this is processing and let the journey play itself out. And I think if you stay with us to the end here, you might catch some things where you're like, oh, I didn't, I've never really thought about it that way or I've never looked at it through that lens. And again, that's why this is a processing episode. I'm not, I'm just walking you all kind of cutting my head open here and exposing the real-time processing and thought process that goes into an attempt to make a solid conviction conclusion. So, anyways, but I do want to, you know, make sure I'm transparent up front. I am very much pro-life. And that's... I'm... I'm unapologetic about that. And so I'll tell you where the processing and kind of the chewing on this issue comes from kind of later on as we talk here. But yes, I do want to say up front that me personally, my conscience is unashamedly pro-life. So that's not where my questioning comes. I do know Christians that have been good Christians that are faithful as far as my relationship with them can discern, that have told me to my face that they are pro-choice on the issue of abortion. And I've never been able to engage deep enough because it's such a tenuous issue with a lot of emotional issues. I've never gone deep enough to really... And this is something I would love to do. So if you know of a pro-choice Christian that would like to have a deep dive conversation with me on it, I would love to have it in a very open, fair way as well. Because I am yet to hear the Christian position that satisfies kind of my standards for... For biblical faithfulness and my standards for Christian living faithfulness. So I'm not, I'm just, I'm here saying it might exist. I'm skeptical on its existence. I just haven't heard it yet, but I do know people, all that to say, I do know faithful Christian people that do hold a pro-choice position. and which I know it's hard for a lot of us to wrap our minds around. But real quick, my pro-life, we'll do one verse, word of the day here. What I stand on scripturally when it comes to my pro-life position is very basic. It's Genesis 2.7. It says, then the Lord God formed the man of the dust from the ground. Okay, so here we get a picture in Genesis 2 where we get Genesis 1 is just kind of the broad strokes overview of how the manner in which God created the heavens and the earth. And then Genesis 2, you get kind of a microscopic, a telescoped in view. deeper dive into the creation of human life, which makes sense. That's the crown jewel of God's creation. We are the crown jewel of God's creation. So we get more insight and it's a very essential chapter. So by just one verse, the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground. So what you see here is the picture of God using physical matter as part of the creation of man, matter, molecules. And the author here just gives us kind of the mindset of God using the matter of this world and forming it together in such a way that there's a body, a physical body. And then the verse continues and says,"...and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." and the man became a living creature so so here we see two clear things that have to what i believe the bible teaches have to be in place in order for a living being to be created to be in existence you have a fully physical human body formed with all the the goods and materials molecules matter available on the created planet. But it's not only that. Life isn't only a matter of man-woman joining one, procreating physically, even though that's essential. There is no life without that. Just like in here, verse 7, there's no life without the forming of physical matter into a body. That's essential. It's like these are two parts of one whole, and if you remove either part, the whole no longer exists. So once you have the physical side equally essential, and then God has to supernaturally, spiritually breathe life. It says he breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. and the man became a living creature. So not until the natural and the supernatural form together does human life exist. So that's my basis for being pro-life in the sense that I don't need to get involved in the biological scientific facts, even though I'm not saying they're not necessary or they're not important or they're not helpful. That's not my point. I'm saying for me, all I need to do is read this verse and see that if the physical process of life giving is in motion, then because of my faith And God, I have to allow that to run its course to see if God is going to finish the deal. Not all births end up in life. Not all pregnancies end up in life. There's stillborns, there's miscarriages, all this stuff. But for me, my conviction is that is the process by which God then uses to breathe supernaturally life into that body. And voila, you have a human being. So once that process is underway, I assume biblically that God is also doing the supernatural work of putting the breath of life into the body. And so therefore, I don't believe that I have any authority or jurisdiction to... cut that process short or end that process until God clearly through action declares that that process he is ending that process through say a complication of pregnancy or a miscarriage or things of that nature that is I believe that that is my faith journey as a Christian is to allow that process to happen on its own knowing that once the physical realities of life making are in process then the typical partner to that is the supernatural and i i would really advise nobody to get in the way of that process i think you're on the wrong side of of faith in god if you get in the way of that process so really that's Genesis 2, 7, that's where I go to form my let that process play itself out. Don't get in the way of that process. You're on the wrong side of faith if you get in the way of that process. So that's my pro-life conviction. Then I'll take it a step further. I am somebody who leans into even in even in and again, I realize that I'm a man, uh, speaking this. And so, you know, take that for, for what it's worth. I, I don't believe that my, my sex or gender, um, should preclude someone from listening to my biblical analysis on issues just because I'm not necessarily the one carrying the lion's share of, of the, of the consequence or the issue. Okay. I don't, I don't fall into that mansplaining criticism just because a woman might be the one who has to carry the lion's share of the realities of a forced pregnancy in a rape situation. I just want you to know I completely understand and have compassion on the fact that I don't have to walk that even close to the same way a woman would have to walk that. So I understand that, but I don't buy into the current narrative that as a man, I'm not allowed to share what I believe Scripture and the Holy Spirit has revealed to all of us. I do understand that it's more effective and more authentic coming from the female perspective, but I learn from females all the time on issues that are more related to my sex. And so I just, I could be a help to females in a certain regard, even though I understand that it may be more authentic and effective to hear this kind of stuff from a female. But I encourage anybody listening, don't ever discredit someone who's trying to share wisdom what they believe, wisdom from the word of God and wisdom from the spirit of God because of their sex or race or whatever. We're in a hyper siloed reality right now. And I think we'd be better people if we would break down the walls of those silos and be open to... me, the minority community speaking to me about the realities of my upbringing in white suburban Grand Rapids, Michigan. And even though someone from a minority group may not really understand what I walked through and how I was brought up, but I have to, if they're gonna open up the word of God or kind of divulge philosophies that they've gotten from their study in the word, I believe I'd be stupid not to listen. Because at the end of the day, if what they're giving me is completely biased and just ridiculous, I can make that decision on my own. But it might not be. So anyways, that's kind of a rabbit trail. But I really struggle with the modern context of... discrediting voices just because they're not the right race or gender on certain issues so again if I'm this is a processing episode so something I'm sharing you receive and then you weigh it against your biblical convictions and you find me to be way out to lunch great let that let that analysis be based on your understanding of scripture and not my my gender on this okay so So anyways, sorry, rabbit trail. I'm not sure. Let me try to pull it back. Oh, yes, I was talking about situations of rape, what we'll call forced pregnancy against the will of the mother pregnancy. I tend to lean even as a society, again, not as individuals, but as a society, I believe the Bible says puts forth a clear philosophy and understanding of the way the world works. And there is no innocence on this planet. Zero. It does not exist. There is no innocent victim in any situation because the Bible is very clear. We have all sinned. We have all fallen short of the glory of God. And me, I am not a rapist. I've never raped anybody. However, I do have a sinful condition that has some way, somehow, I'm not saying contributed to specific moments of rape, but all of our sin condition has contributed to the perpetual fallen nature of planet Earth and the breakdown of... relationships and the breakdown of you know just any list of things any number of things we all are a reason we all are equal um participants in the fallen nature of the creation and so therefore in the name of life i have I have a responsibility, we all have a responsibility in the name of life to understand that and then to allow a life, allow God to do his thing, complete the physical creation and breathe the breath of life, even if that life was conceived physically in life. sinful ways so we as a society because we're all equal participants in the fallen nature of society basically we all owe it to that life to do what it takes to allow it to move forward that's kind of just again that that's that's me kind of kind of rough off the top of my head, but that's kind of what I process on this, that some terrible, awful situations say, and I hate to even speak this out loud, but somebody I love like my wife or a family member or whatever is put in a rape situation and where there's an unwanted forced pregnancy, we then as a societal family unit I do believe we have biblical responsibility to come alongside that burgeoning life and allow it to move forward according to this overall sovereign plan of God. And if that requires sacrifice on all of our parts, it's a sacrifice well worth giving. And I believe the Lord will honor that sacrifice in time. if not on this planet, but in the afterlife. So anyways, that's kind of just all that to just put on front street where I'm at when it comes to pro-life, even in the worst circumstances. Yeah, I think it does go without saying that there are pregnancy situations and birth situations where it is the mother or the child. And that's... Those are the god-awful, just horrendous realities of living in a fallen world. But I don't see a biblical moral argument to killing a mother in order to save a child. I don't see that. scripture so I don't see a situation where it's biblically wrong to allow a doctor or whatever to quote-unquote abort a baby because you know the mother's life was was in danger so that's that's a whole different category in my book okay so All that kind of by way of just kind of background introduction, just so you see where I'm at as I'm wrestling through these new Roe v. Wade, you know, just kind of political, cultural bombs that are hitting us right now. And there's kind of just three things I want to walk us or I walk myself through when I'm considering this issue. One, first thing is pro-life is both a moral position and a political position. I do really, I do think there's validity and I think it's important for us to understand as we're engaging on this issue that there are two things at play at the same time. Oftentimes we as Christians just wrap it into one pro-life position. reality. One pro-life where so many times as I listen to pro-life advocates, they're always advocating on the moral side where their pro-choice opponents are refuting more on the political side. So I think it's important as you kind of walk through and digest this, understand that there are two separate planes in which this issue exists. There's the moral position as far as What is ultimately right? What is ultimately wrong? That's where we Christians quickly go to the authority of Scripture, the authority of God, and Him as the creator, designer of all things, our submission to what we believe His wishes are. And then there's the political position about, and that's the question of what should... the United States of America government do about this issue? What should the government's role be in this issue? And that's where I think even for us Christians, it might not be as clear-cut anymore. Because if you think about it this way, the moral position we Christians will have probably much more higher fervor than our pro-choice counterparts you know again i'm assuming the pro-choice being more coming from the secular uh communities around us secular point of view perspective around us and then pro-life being more from you know the religious spiritual biblical realities so That's where we're trying to purely look at issues and say, what is right, what is wrong? For us, it's what's right according to God, what's wrong according to God. I just want to remind us, that's not as clear for those in our country that are atheist, agnostic, secular. Just basically, they aren't to a point where they... believe in submitting to any sort of authority outside of themselves and whatever forced authority is over them through power structures like government and things of that nature. So we'll get into that in a minute. But the political question being, what should the government do about this? There's a lot of ways to skin that cat. And I just... Let's think about what's in front of us. And this is one thing that I'm just kind of working through in my mind. What is in front of us is the overturning of Roe v. Wade that made abortion a federal right beyond what they say the point of viability is. I forget if that's 15 or it's like 18 weeks. I forget that basically abortions are right nationally. during the first trimester. A lot of you got pro-life advocates who probably can correct my details on this, but you get the point. So yes, pro-life is championing this potential reality that that right is going to be stricken from the rule books And so what's going to happen because of that, the issue is going to be kicked to the states. And the states are going to determine more locally what is the best position to take on abortion for their state. Now, I sit there as I think that through. Is that going to reduce the number of abortions? or is that potentially going to increase the number of abortions? Now, I don't know, but that is something I think about politically, is the overturning of Roe v. Wade, albeit I completely understand the step forward in the pro-life, you have to, for pro-life movement to move forward, I completely understand the argument that you have to eliminate the, the constitutional right to an abortion nationally. That's kind of like step one. However, if it just stays there, if Roe v. Wade just gets overturned and that's kind of the end of pro-life progress, I sit there and I'm being in California, I see all the outreach that is going on right this moment to not just people in my state, but anybody in neighboring states everywhere. We're at this point, we will pay, from what I understand of the legislation that our governor has proposed, that my tax money is going to fund people's travel expenses to come into the state in order to get an abortion. So I'm just like, wow. In a much more global travel society than it was before, 50, 60 years ago when we were originally considering these issues, you know, where jumping state to state was not as typical as it is now. Like we, you know, pay your 120 bucks and get your one way ticket to, you know, a state or two over. And then that's being incentivized. That's, I don't know. I just, that's something I think through as far as like, if my goal is a net reduction in abortions to the point of, God willing, zero, politically, what is the best strategy for that? And is this ultimately going to help in that? And again, I'm not here to argue that. I completely understand, like I said, the argument that you have to start somewhere and step one is dealing with Roe. And getting that off the books. So I get all that. And so, you know, I, as at this point, not really understand, you know, understanding that there are unintended consequences of things. And I don't know what those unintended consequences are going to end up being right now. I am very excited about the prospect of, of Roe being overturned again. That's just, I feel like in these episodes, I need to be more upfront and put my cards on the table. Um, so anyways, um, So me, what I just said, pro-life is both a moral position and a political position. I am pro-life on both. I am pro-life morally, like I laid out, and that is purely based on my biblical Christian worldview. And I'm also pro-life politically, that I do want to see governments all over the world, but especially in the United States, I do want to see governments put pro-life realities into all the laws of the land. I don't exactly know what all that needs to look like because I'm not super engaged in this issue politically. However, I do, you know, Pro-life means a lot to me when I am making political decisions like who I'll vote for and things of that nature. So I'm pro-life on both. Here's kind of the question that I've just been chewing on recently. Ever since I had a conversation with a friend a number of years ago where they were one of my Christian friends that just kind of said, I'm pro-choice. We didn't really have an opportunity to get... in depth and we haven't had an opportunity since and I would love to have that conversation just because I want to understand. I want to understand because I don't understand it right now. So the question on my mind, is there room to be morally pro-life and politically pro-choice? And again, the case in point of my friend that I'm thinking of, they were pro-life in their personal choices. they had opportunities to terminate pregnancies and did not chose life for their own children, for their own family. So that would be evidence of, say, a moral pro-life position, but then, you know, in their political engagement, pro-choice. And so I've been just, as I've been thinking deep on this, I've been just trying to see where... Where potentially is that room? Like you've heard me say in previous episodes, as we've been talking a lot about politics in recent months and years since we started the podcast, I believe in the Christian faith, there's plenty of room at the table to have a variety of views in the Christian context. I believe there can be diversity, political diversity, in the church, in the body of Christ. And the only caveat that I always say is the only one that I'm not sure about when it comes to politics is abortion, is pro-life. That's one where I'm, the jury is, as of today, like I said, I'm pro-life both. And I don't understand, as of today, a pro-choice political Christian. But I've been really trying to think what are the circumstances in which that could be biblically acceptable. And I'm also thinking of a tweet I just read from a Christian pastor. Basically, I'm paraphrasing. It just basically said, if you're pro-choice, you are anti-Bible. You know, and just the blank say, I was like, wow, that's a clear biblical conviction there. And so I started, would I, could I, make that tweet and authentically have that represent my conviction so this is the part where don't get mad at me don't start throwing stuff at your phone or throwing your phone at the wall these are just me trying to get to the point where if i'm able to get to the place where that pastor tweeted i want that to come from just complete biblical understanding and clarity of thought and for me that means getting rid of being able to deal with all potential competing arguments. So that's what I'm working through right now. And so is there room to believe morally pro-life and politically pro-choice? My first thought is when I think about these political positions, it's ultimately a war of worldviews, I believe. Ultimately, worldview is kind of what's what pushes you towards these different politically opposing views and again so one worldview sees divine design and purpose to life and then there's another worldview that sees random molecule arrangement and happenstance just cosmic life is cosmic happenstances and when you look at it and through those worldview lenses um i the the pro-choice political stance makes more sense to me i'm not saying i agree with it or accept it but when it comes when i understand the worldview that it's coming from that this That this potential life that I'm now pregnant with or whatever is just a random happenstance. Then, yeah, tipping the scale to... the living, breathing mother who already has a life that they're leading and trying to fulfill and trying to contribute to society, putting the choice in her hands whether this is the right circumstance to continue with this cosmic coincidence, all I can say is I can understand it from that point of view. I hate it on so many levels, but if that's someone's general, and that's kind of the general secular worldview, is there is no intentionality, purpose, design, ultimate purpose. divine authoritative hand moving that life through divine purposes. I think sometimes Christians take for granted how life-shaping of a conviction that actually is. And so we sit there and be like, yes, obviously pro-life. It's the only way to go. It's the only way. morally acceptable and politically acceptable. And that's why we get so passionate about it. But just imagine for a minute that that's not your, that's not your default. Like you don't live any part of your life with that conviction at all. And that's, that is now describing the majority of Americans right now, which is, which is why this, this issue is so fraught and based on polling data, the pure pro-life majority, stances are in the minority which is what's fueling so much of the pro-choice pushback right now as they believe that the Supreme Court is acting apart from the will of the people and they believe it's an assault on democracy now I'm not saying I agree with that analysis but I can have a level of understanding of where that comes from So to what degree should we expect an anti-define divine authority culture to conform themselves to a biblical worldview at their own expense? That's oftentimes the way we engage in the pro-life political activism. Sometimes I feel like that that's what we're attempting to do. We're attempting to take people with an anti-divine authority worldview and we're asking you conform to our worldview at your own expense have an unwanted pregnancy because it's ultimately the right thing to do even though you don't really necessarily have the convictions to draw that conclusion go with us on this even though your life is going to be changed dramatically from that standpoint on. And so that's where I start wrestling with it. And again, I understand as I'm laying this out, I'm kind of contradicting myself that my question is, is there room to be morally pro-life and politically pro-choice? Again, I'm not there from the Christian faith perspective. So I'm kind of setting my own self up for defeat. So these processing episodes are good. It's good to hear your own thoughts out loud. You should try it. Give your thoughts to someone you trust. But the other thing I think about is what is the purpose of winning the issue politically today? If it precludes us from winning morally, and that's really where I think my main wrestling sits today, is what's the point of winning an issue politically if it's potentially stopping us from winning it morally? And just so it's clear, if I could only choose one, if I can only choose victory and one today, winning the moral argument or winning the political argument, I take the moral all day long. I take the moral all day long. Because at the end of the day, I can live with pro-choice freedom if everybody making that choice has a moral conviction bent towards life. Because then I know what they will choose. And in a perfect world, there will be no need for abortion regulations or laws or debates because we will all be individually making the correct moral choice. So the freedom of choice is always best when the people making the choice are of a moral fabric to where they make the right call. And then it's always best not to add layers and legislation, laws and legislation on top of of potential choice because that's where it always gets complicated. It always gets complicated then. And it always, you know, laws and legislations is never one size fits all. So then you have issues on the exceptions to the norm and all that kind of stuff. So, and that's really what I wonder right now as I think this through is, is our engagement in pro-life politically really becoming a hindrance or an obstacle to us winning this argument morally. And here's what I mean by that. I believe that if the Spirit of God is alive in a redeemed, transformed human being, there is now a supernatural, a more powerful supernatural bend towards life. To draw some of the conclusions that I laid out at the Life is both physical and supernatural, so I don't want to get in the way of that process because I'm more apt now to trust the supernatural purpose in life. And that ultimately is the cure. That is the cure. For me, that's evangelism. That's getting... gospel of Jesus Christ out into as many people as possible so that they have an opportunity for that life transformative reality and to where I don't have to worry so much about pro-choice politically because I know the choice that they will make. I know hundreds and hundreds of close friends that if, you know, we live in California where for the next foreseeable future we will always have a choice to abort a child even if roe v wade gets overturned and i know of my community i already know that that choice has been made even in in really tough circumstances that the choice for life for life will be made and that so and that's because jesus won and he brought he won the moral argument in the hearts of those people So that is the more powerful reality. I have more faith and trust in the supernatural transformation of human beings than I do half-baked laws, rules, and regulations from a top-down authoritative regime because, again, we all know that Big Brother can't, as much as Orwell tried to predict, Big Brother can't analyze you every second of every day there is there will always be criminal activity meaning people that go against the laws of the land and and we know that from all kinds of societies that have pro-life laws in their books um there are still abortions going on you know that's one of the things that the pro-choice movement points to and they are accurate in that um so So that's why I always think of issues in terms of engagement. And that's really just where my wrestling comes, not from where I stand on these issues, but what's the best possible engagement strategy in the abortion issue, especially for those of us that feel so passionately about life and making sure we give all life... its full opportunity to move through whatever God has planned for it, where we humans don't get in the way and make, quote unquote, that decision for God. Are we engaging in the best possible way to bring about the moral reformation that's needed in this society that is dominated by a secular worldview that wouldn't draw these conclusions out of their own worldview. And so is now our engagement in pro-life and something that the pro-choice movement just really has a tough time understanding and accepting and wrapping their heads around just because they have a fundamentally different view of the world. Are we preventing ourselves from really being influential and effective in building relationships within the pro-choice community so that Because really what I believe human history has kind of borne out is that the gospel rides best on the back of a healthy relationship. And I'm not saying that... I know plenty of people that just got smacked in the head by just a quick word or one of those supernatural testimonies. But really... evangelism as a strategy, as an intentionality, if building just really trusting, healthy relationships with the people you're trying to reach, if that's not part of it, I just don't think it's really going to be a great long-term strategy. Then you're just relying on God to just smack people really quickly and upside the head with just a Jesus spirit bomb. And that does happen. Don't get me wrong. That does happen. But God will do that also while you're trying to cultivate relationship with different people in different communities and things of that nature. So it's a both and for me. So I hope that kind of makes sense. That's where my head's at is Is there, and I guess the question that sometimes I wonder about is kind of toning down, maybe not giving up on the political issue, but maybe toning the rhetoric down a bit and just engaging in a more winsome fashion, understanding that Just understanding the reality that these people don't have the same worldview I do. So I'm going to tone down my political rhetoric so that I can turn up the fire on my moral engagement. And what I mean moral, not telling people they're doing the wrong thing, but morally winning the moral argument by revealing through... a transformed view of scripture that Jesus is life. He came to bring life and all those, all those amazing things that, you know, that once you have the spirit of God inside of you, those things start to make sense, but that's called evangelism. And it's, it's hard to do evangelism when there's just complete walls built between, between different communities. And that's, I guess that's all that to say. That's what I kind of see being built is, And those walls getting fortified because of the Supreme Court's potential action on Roe v. Wade, those walls getting fortified to where the pro-life, Jesus-loving community, we just, we can't break down those walls. Jesus can, like I said, I'm never discounting a miracle. But, again, I think in terms of engagement. So, That's where I think is there room to be morally pro-life but politically pro-choice and maybe a better way to say that is politically toned down pro-life. I think like me, I hold a pro-life political stance but I choose to really exercise that with my vote and less so with my activism because all my activism I have pointed at I'm All my activism, I'm trying to channel through the avenue of evangelism because I know the worldview change is, I think, the most useful change when it comes to getting someone to move from pro-choice to pro-life. And those are just, again, my half-baked processing thoughts. So last thing, man, processing episode, we're already 50 minutes in. Some things to think about. If you are pro-life morally and politically, I would say this. This will also help us. Let's say you kind of came out of my last question of pro-life morally versus politically and you're like, nope, you need to be both and you need to be engaging in both. Okay, I'm not here to argue with that. So if you come out of that question and you're like, I'm pro-life morally and I'm pro-life politically, and I'm going to be actively engaging in both. Then I would just say, make sure you are pro-life actively. So pro-life morally, pro-life politically, make sure you're pro-life actively. And what I mean by that is in past episodes, you probably heard me use the Mother Teresa example to where that's like the best pro-life example engagement I've ever heard of in the history of mankind to where Mother Teresa had such a burden for the unborn in her community of Calcutta because of what she heard of the amount of abortions that were going on in her city her own community that she believed God had sent her to do whatever she could to hurt I mean to help the hurting and the poor and the dying so Potential aborted fetuses fell into that category. So she went to the hospital in Calcutta, the main hospital, and did the most pro-life active thing I've ever heard of. And she went to the hospital administration when she had kind of gained a name for herself and a reputation and some trust in the community and said, if you refuse to perform abortions, I will take every unwanted pregnancy. That's the most pro-life thing I've ever heard. As opposed to picketing the hospital and doing all these political rallying and lobbying, she simply used the influence she had gained from serving the hurting, the needy, the poor, the dying in her community and said, I'm willing to add another category of unwanted children. I will take them all. meaning hospital, you won't be stuck with a mom walking out on a child and then you're sitting there with this baby with limited resources saying, what the heck do we do? That's what encourages people just to say, let's just abort these fetuses before it even gets to that point. And she understood that in her community and said, And so she did. And there was agreements made between her and the hospital. And she made a commitment. Anytime that hospital called and says, we have an unwanted child, it was always a yes. Even if she didn't have an answer of what to do or how to pay, it was always a yes. That's just... That's the most incredible, faithful, corporate engagement on a... That's... That's depoliticizing a highly political issue in a way that nobody can argue with. And, you know, I know that some of the pushback we're getting right now is that we're so pro-life in our political engagement that they're kind of saying, where does the active pro-life, you know, where does this pro-life activity, where does it match the rhetoric? And I think to a certain point, that point needs to be well taken. It needs to be understood and understood. We need to do something about that. So this is stuff I think about. What if the Christian church in your county, whatever county that is, and by Christian church I don't mean one church, but I mean everybody who calls themselves Christian and is an active member in the local church of that county, which that could be hundreds of churches, came together with one voice, went to their county adoption and foster department and said, we'll take them all. Any unwanted child that you're unable to place in a healthy, vetted situation, let's figure this out. We will take every one. So all you have to do is call this number and say, we have a child that this day, this time, come pick it up. And then the Christian church with all of the network of families, of faithful people, are now engaged and active in trying to figure into creating a solution for each child. That's the kind of stuff that is, it's just, that... When I think in terms of engaging on an issue, that is a testimony of engagement that it's hard, no matter how ardent of a pro-choice activist you are, it's hard not to give credibility to that level of activity. And it's possible. It's possible. So why don't we take those steps? Well, I think we as Christians, we're good at requiring people to trust God individually and but often never consider trusting God corporately. We're very good at telling the woman in the crisis pregnancy situation saying, trust the Lord, trust the Lord. And that message is true. It's biblical. There's nothing wrong with it. But there is also a corporate trusting the Lord that the body of Christ as a whole is asked to do when we don't have maybe solutions and resources already identified and figured out, but we bring to the table a community say of 200,000 people in a given county or whatever and say, this is what we're bringing to the table. We have pledges from 200,000 of contributing whatever's needed to make sure that there is no unwanted child that happens in our community, in our county. That takes a level of corporate trust where we don't have the answers. We don't have everything figured out. But that's how in the past the Christian church has figured this out. That's why most hospitals, the hospital system of our entire nation are founded in church communities outreach ministry. And we didn't necessarily have all the expertise day one, but we gained it as we collectively put ourselves out there and said, no, we, the church, we're the resource of the community to help these things. So we, I feel like we Christians, just like our secular counterparts, have made the same mistake. And we've put our trust in the government above our trust in God to bring solutions to these problems. Obviously, these very biblically moral issues like life, life of the unborn. And I think that's why some of our Christian brothers and sisters have a tough time holding such a hard line on the pro-life political movement. Because they sense that there's been inconsistencies there. And I'm not saying that that's a valid reason to hold a pro-choice position politically, but I can understand the tension. I would love to help anybody work through that tension, but there is a bigger role for us to play. So if you are pro-life morally and politically, make sure that we're all pro-life actively. And that may not mean that you specifically adopt a child, but there's so much more that needs to be done than just the simple act of adoption. And I feel like our church as a whole has been pretty good at pushing that type of activity, adopting, and there's so many Christian families that do that, and it's amazing how But there's so many families that don't because it's really just on them as an individual family to figure it out. There's not this corporate swell of everybody pitching in a little bit in order to help offset the burden of such significant lifestyle choices. So anyways, we are now an hour in. I hope that all somewhat makes sense as you kind of Just kind of hear the rattlings of my mind as I work through this. As you can tell, I'm putting a lot of thought in this and some points probably deeper than what it needs to be. all that good stuff but hopefully just kind of if you've stayed with me this long you know an hour in God bless you hopefully just you've benefited from the wrestling that now you're wrestling because whatever the outcome of that wrestling is going to be I believe it's a deeper it'll be a deeper firmer conviction into what the spirit of God and the Bible is actually pulling us into even if you and I deviate on different areas. That's okay. The thought process is huge. It's the biblical meditation. That's what we need to be doing about these important issues. So anyways, that's plenty for now. Thank you guys so much. As always, like, rate, review the podcast, jump on Facebook, jump on Instagram, Twitter. I try to engage there as much as I can and release new episodes. But subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening to. And thank you, as always. We love you. Until next time, Christian Well, everyone. Have a great week.